Uncovering The Hidden Value of Podcasting | Tom Rossi

How do you determine the value of podcasting? Is it through monetization? Audience growth? Your total number of guest appearances? The myth surrounding podcasting success on either side of the mic is that you have to look to these metrics. But the value of podcasting actually far surpasses these things! In this episode, join Alex Sanfilippo and Tom Rossi as they share the hidden value of podcasting that will uplevel your perspective on the medium, lead you to a more enjoyable experience, and lead to more success!

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction
00:53 Extracting Value from Podcasting
04:28 Encouraging Independent Podcasters
05:16 The Meaningful Experience of Podcasting
07:04 Engagement and Intimacy in Podcasting
08:26 Building Relationships through Podcasting
09:17 The Value of 120 Downloads
10:08 Growing Your Podcast Audience
11:13 Creating Valuable Relationships as a Guest
13:08 Redefining Monetization
16:22 Different Strategies for Monetization
21:38 Dynamic Content and Extracting Value
24:16 Educating Listeners on Supporting the Show
25:42 The Value of Every Episode
27:04 Imposter Syndrome and Extracting Value
28:23 Setting Goals and Being Intentional
28:50 Conclusion

Takeaways

• Serve the listeners and focus on providing value.
• Build meaningful relationships through podcasting.
• Success in podcasting is not solely determined by downloads and monetization.
• Explore various strategies for extracting value, such as affiliate marketing, sponsorships, and listener support.

MORE FROM THIS EPISODE: HTTPS://PODMATCH.COM/EP/277

Transcript

0:01

You're listening to Podcasting Made Simple. What's up, everybody? Alex Sanfilippo here. If I've not had the opportunity to meet you, this is Podcasting Made Simple live in a very different location. So if you're watching this, you might not recognize my background or if you hear my velvety smooth voice, I don't usually have it because of this sweet mic. So quick shout out to the Biz bros. Content is profit is their podcast. Check it out. And we're a podcast studio suite. They were kind enough to lend us this room today. I'm joined by Tom Rossi, co -founder of Buzzsprout today. Tom, welcome, man. Hey, thanks for having me. Dude, I'm super excited about this, man. Me too. We were out skateboarding, electric skateboarding. Is that what you call it? Is that what it is? Yeah. Electric skateboard. We were out doing that like a couple of days ago. And then we like, we're at the end of our ride and we got into this like really deep podcasting conversation. And right there I was like, bro, we have to record this. Like this has got to be shared on Podcasting Made Simple. It's got to be part of the live event. So dude, I'm really excited to dive into this today. And I got some notes here because I want to make sure that we are mindful of everyone's time and our time as well. What we're really talking about today, though, is just extracting value from podcasting as a guest or as a host. Like, how do you extract value from it? And the first thing I want to mention is like. you always have to have the listeners in mind. Ultimately, we're all here to serve the person who's listening on the mic, right? It's gotta be valuable for them. Beyond that, what value is in it for us? And so we're kind of gonna focus more on that side, even though you all know, like I'm all about leading with value, serving the people that are listening. And then how can we also capitalize on that as well, because we should be able to. And Tom, what are we gonna talk about today? The way that you just said it, I think is perfect. This idea that we're putting value out there. Right? We're putting that, hopefully if you're doing a podcast, you're doing it to add value and that's why people are listening to it. And so when we talk about, we were calling it extracting value because I couldn't come up with a better way. Too many times people talk about monetization when really it's about how do you extract value? You're putting value out. Now how do you, like you just said, how do I capitalize on some of that value and how do I open up doors for the people that are getting value to be able to share that with me? You know, the podcasting 2 .0 community coined the value for value, which I think is, it's a great way to think about it, is how do you get value for value? And there's a bunch of different ways to do that. And they don't all fall into monetization. And so that's, that was what prompted our conversation about extracting value. I don't know a better way to say it. Yeah, no, it sounds a little, it does, we don't mean to make that sound, if you like sales, you're like, it should, it should sound good, but. It also sounds like you're, you're like. sucking the life out of something like extracting value, but I don't know another way to say it. It's not about monetization because it isn't always money. It's just it's value. How do you get value out of it? Yeah, no, it's good, man. I'm excited to dive into this. And I think we're gonna break into two categories. The first thing is me downloads and the second part will be actual monetization kind of breaking those two sides. And we're obviously we're talking to guests and hosts today. So we're thinking about like. from the perspective of the host and from the guest, right? So we'll keep it high level on both sides for both parties that are involved, either side of the mic, right? So first off, just want downloads. It was about a year ago, I think it was in 2023, I had you come on and you shared some stats about actual podcast listenership that both guests and hosts, two things, it was very eye -opening, but also very encouraging. I'd love for you to share some of those numbers again, just around that so that we as guests and hosts can have the right perspective about what is it we're getting into from a numbers perspective. Sure. We recognize this maybe... maybe a year or two ago, we started looking at our numbers. So Buzzsprout, we have a good number of podcasts. So we have over a hundred thousand active podcasts, podcasts that are uploading new episodes. And we wanted to share that data with everyone because it's good for the industry to be able to share those numbers. But one of the things that we didn't expect was that there would be this encouraging number, which is probably the one that you're talking about. So I just brought it up for, for last month, the top 1 % of podcasts, had 4 ,896 downloads in the first seven days. So almost 5 ,000 downloads. I mean, that's really good. But what's crazy is if you got more than 120, you're in the top 25%. So of 100 ,000 podcasts, active podcasts on Buzzsprout, if you get more than 120 downloads in the first seven days, that means 75 % of the other podcasts are not getting as many downloads as you. We found that to be massively encouraging because so many times you'll hear people and they're like, well, I'm only getting whatever, a hundred downloads on my most recent episode and like, should I even be doing this anymore? And you hear those kinds of questions. And so you really want to encourage them of like, look, you're doing it. Like you're in the top percentage of podcasters. And so that's why we started sharing those numbers. And so anybody can go look at those numbers, if you go to Buzzsprout .com slash stats. We update them every month and we're just very transparent with this is what we're seeing, at least for our podcasts. These are the numbers that we see. Yeah. And it's enough of a case study that I would say that's industry wide or at least very close. So thank you by the way for being transparent. Definitely for the independent podcasts, right? Like Buzzsprout is home for a lot of independent podcasts, ones that aren't. you know, part of a massive ad network or anything like that. Like, you're not gonna find... Joe Rogan's not gonna skew our stats. He's not gonna be... Like, those type of podcasts are typically gonna go somewhere where they're owned, you know? So, it's different. So, it's more for indie podcasters. Which, again, is great. Here's the thing I wanna share about that first and foremost is I recently had somebody reach out to me via email and they were very frustrated with podcasting in general. They weren't a member of Podmatch. They... They hadn't heard, they recently just heard me and they reached out and the person referred themselves. They said, I'm a big name public speaker, which that's a red flag. I mean, yeah, I'm a big deal. I'm a big deal. I'm like, you have to tell me you are, are you? And I wasn't rude. So I just kept the conversation going. And he said, it's a total waste of my time if I want a podcast with less than 500,000 people listening the first seven days. And I just asked, I said, and this is why I want everyone to get this real quick. It's not me bashing on somebody, but podcast listeners are the same as people sitting in seats. And so I asked, I said, Hey, man, I'll just leave his name out. Hey, man, like when was the last time you spoke in a room with 500 ,000 people in it? And his response was not very nice, but basically he's like, you can't compare those two things. It's not the same at all, but the reality is it actually really is the same. The data on how people interact after a podcast with a host versus a speaker on a stage is actually very similar. And so, but so many of us, we want to compare it to, especially getting on the guesting side of it. Nothing bad about guests, but we get conditioned by social media thinking, oh, this will be another marketing method. similar to how social media works. And so you get 10 ,000 likes or views on social media and we're like, well, podcasting should be the same. But again, it's not the same. It's not a two second scroll past or double tap for a like. It's 30, 45 minutes, an hour of somebody listening to everything that you share and you're developing that no like and trust in a way that only a stage can compare with. Yeah. There's something different about podcasting. That's what everything shows. Alvin wrote an article. I think that was the title of it. You know, there's something different about podcasting, but it's this idea of comparing engagement. When people are engaged in podcast in a way that's different than just liking something on Instagram or Facebook, just, you know, giving it a thumbs up versus engaging with the content for 30 minutes, which is what you see with podcasting is people really do that. And they form a much different relationship with the content, right? It's something, I don't know, it's just something that's more intimate about it. I don't see, I'm just listening, but you're like in my ear and we see that listeners have a relationship with the podcast, with the podcast host and the guests that they bring on that's different. If they endorse a product, if they make a recommendation about changes to their lifestyle, people are more likely to listen to it. Why is that? It's because podcasting is different. It's just different. Yeah. And this seat that we share right now, right? The guest and host seat. I always find that the basis of all friendship and relationship is upon meaningful experience. And for most people that aren't like media trained, been on TV a lot, like this is a meaningful experience that people are having, whether it's in person or remote, it doesn't really make a difference. That to them is something to remember. They're telling their friends and family about it. I was on a podcast the other day, right? Like, you're like, what? Tell me about that. It's not quite the same as going like on a whitewater rafting adventure or anything like that, but it does hold a similar weight. And I always say that, man, guests and hosts are more primed to do more together after. They've been on a podcast. You don't really forget that person. Like you forget the person who just slid into your DMs once like, Hey, what's up? You know, like you forget that that's not really meaningful, but this you're creating something valuable that serves other people together. That's a meaningful experience. I think that's just the beginning of what could be a great relationship regardless of the downloads. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And there's so many different relationships that start in that, right. Where it could be between the podcast host and the guest. It could be between a listener and the host or guest where the listener reaches out. and says, you know, I want to connect with you because of this thing that I'm doing with my business. And you mentioned this thing. Like, I know personally, I've done that with multiple podcasts, hosts and guests that I've reached out to say, Hey, I heard you on a podcast and I really want to connect. So I definitely see that. That's cool. The way that you and I actually first connected is I had a guest on my podcast that resonated with you and you like reached out. And I was like, no way. Cause I was, you know, I'm a bus prep paying customer, huge fan. I was like, This is Tom Rossi. I'm like, no way. And you're like, bro, good job. We got a FaceTime call. I was like, oh, thank you. Super nervous. But that was years ago. That was kind of the start of a relationship. It's like a really interesting case study, which we'll get into more on the actual monetization side and, again, extracting value being the idea here. But one more thing before we move on from this. So 125 is what you said is kind of the top 25 percentile. Is that the number? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to mention on that, then, is like it's actually just 120. So 120 puts you in the top 25%, 480 puts you in the top 10%. See, those numbers aren't, that's realistic. Yeah, exactly. The reason I mention that, like for me, the way that I've grown my podcast is I just tell one person about it every day. Like I literally have it written down on my to -do list. Every day is tell one person about my podcast. And I was like, I want to monetize my show. I'll send them an episode about it. Or I'm thinking about quitting. I'll send them this episode when it comes out, right? Right. And that's my one new listener every day. And if you do that for 120 days in a row, you're in the top 10 percentile. Like, it seems really like... possible, right? And so I guess I love practical. So I'm going to put you on the spot here, Tom. Have you seen anything that podcasters or the guests are helping do that helps people bump up to that level? Like, have you seen something that really just seems to move the needle? I think the most effective way for people to grow their show is by going on other shows. So if they go on as a guest on another show, then both shows increase. You know, because the listeners of the one podcast go listen to the other one and the of the one podcast listen to the other one. And so you both grow. And so I think I mean, I've seen that as being the most effective way to grow your audience is by being on other podcasts. I like that on the guest side here. What I've seen helps the most is I know hosts really like when guests repost stuff that comes out and I do all that. But what I've done that has helped the most is I actually create a blog post on my website. I have a section for like me appearing on other podcasts. We write a little about it and we link out to their show and hosts have been telling me, Hey, that's like, I can see traffic coming from your website to mine to listen to this podcast episode. So like there's little things that the guests can do as well to help. And I'll be real, man. Like when I'm on a podcast and my episode is the most popular, I'll say this, I don't, no one can spell my name. Very few can say it, right? So, and I don't have like this huge clout, like of being like someone who's a celebrity or famous by any means, but like I put in the extra effort and it's often, I'm often told that my podcast on that show, like me as the guest is the most popular they've ever had. And so I get invited back or I get introduced to their friends, right? And so for me, I always say like as a guest, do your, do your little bit of work to help them get to that. 120 listeners in the first seven days, right? Like if that's their current goal, just do your part to share it. And I always say like, you should be really proud of it. If you're honest, be proud of it, be willing to share it. It's kind of red flagged when someone's like, I don't wanna share that. I'm like, ooh, did I do a bad job? Did you do a bad job? Why not? What did you say? And that's also why I tell people like, keep a cadence, it's realistic. Like nothing against people who go on a hundred shows in like 30 days and stuff. I know it's become like quite popular, but like for me, I can't share that much content. No one cares that much about me, right? I'm not selling myself short, but if I do one or two a month, I can share it throughout that month. And it's really valuable. So versus just like having so much that is overwhelming. So. And that's a really good example, too, of where it can be very effective when the guest shares the content. It's good for the guest because hopefully I'm assuming that they said things on the show that was valuable, that represents them. But you've got to sometimes make the ask, hey, would you mind sharing this? Would you put this out in your socials? Would you? And sometimes podcasters won't do that because they feel like it's an imposition or they just don't do it. They just don't think about it. And that's a really good point. Yeah. I want to flip gears here. One more thing right there I got to share with the audience real quick. Something that a host recently did for me is they told me exactly what value I added in that podcast episode. And they asked, hey, if you know anyone who has an interest in learning this about you, this is what you can share with them, the episode. And man, I was like, wow, that's good. And so I built out like we use an app called Text Expander, which gives you like little codes. So anytime someone's like, hey, so what's your background? I send them that episode where I was a guest because I dove so deep into it. And so like, people were like, wow, this is really great. And then I saved myself. hours of trying to explain, right? I'm like, this 25 minute episode does a really good job explaining who I am. People are like, wow, I really connected with that, right? So anyway, for what it's worth, I think that's a great thing to do as well. But for sake of time, I want to move on to the monetization side of things. So I actually want monetization, which doesn't always mean what we think it does. I'm just going to turn it over to you. Let's go on this. Well, that was what we talked about, this idea that when you got into podcasting, you had some idea in your mind of what success. looked like. And all too often we forget once we get into it because we're surrounded by tons of people in the industry that tell us that it's all about downloads and it's all about monetization. When there's so many, I'm not saying that those are bad. I'm just saying that those aren't the only ways to extract value out of your podcast or to get value or to experience the success that you got into podcasting for. And so... thinking through all the other ways, and then you and I were just rattling off. There are just so many different strategies for how you could use a podcast to be able to capitalize on the value that you're putting out into the network, what you can do to get it back. Yeah. You know, I'll share one real quick, and I want to hear some examples from you. One that, and I just share this with you. I had somebody, my podcast went with small and I, I mean, I don't even think I, I think it was pre -launch and this guy had created to come on and we built a great relationship. He's very high up at Stripe. And that's who we decided to go with because of that relationship I had when we built Podmatch out. And I know we send them five or six figures a year. And he built that by coming on my show with nobody listening to it because it hadn't launched yet. Right. And so like that's like for that guess, that was a really strategic, great and he didn't mean for it to be. He was just there to have fun. Right. But that ended up being a really great relationship because we could have gone with other options. There's options besides Stripe. But we decide that. I'm like, hey, I got a buddy who's there and I want to make sure like he's been really nice to me. And so we had that relationship like. I mean, I guess you could put a dollar on that five or six figures. Like is that a dollar figure? Like on that one interview that happened. But I want you to riff on some of these, man. What are some ideas that you share with me? One of my favorites that I wouldn't have thought. A friend of mine has a podcast and she is an aspiring author. So she's got an agent, but she hasn't picked up. She hasn't been picked up by a publisher yet. And so she started a podcast and she brings on agents. She brings on other authors. And as a result, she's having conversations with people that would never have a conversation with her, but because she's on a podcast and it's a very tight niche, right? Because it's geared towards just authors, people that are aspiring authors and the guests, it's great for them because if I'm an agent, I'm trying to meet aspiring authors that have great content and it's great for her because she's having a conversation, she's getting their phone number, she's able to follow up with them. And so I was talking to her about, you know, monetization or whatever, this idea of extracting value. And she's like, for her, it's all about... opening doors, even if she doesn't get one download, she's getting all the value out of just being able to have these relationships. I thought it was a great example. I think it's a good one. But like, even if you're just a listener, like if there is one download, that's someone else opening the door and you're going to peek in it. Yeah. Right. That's like that. That's the view that you're getting as a listener. So anyone in the same boat that she's in is like, oh, this is I'm going to do this too, but I'm just going to sit back and peek in the door when she opens them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I had a conversation with another podcaster when we launched Buzzsprout ads, which is. a form of monetization, being able to accept ads and have them in there. I was talking to somebody because I was surprised at how many people were running ads that didn't have a strategy for like, how are you extracting value out of your podcast? So if you run an ad, you should probably know how you're going to get value out of it so you can figure out is it worth it? You know, am I spending the right amount of money? So anyways, long story short, I was at a conference and I was just asking people, how do you, how do you judge the value that you're getting out of your podcast? And I asked somebody and he's like, my podcast, he said, it's my business card. And I loved it. I thought it was perfect. He's like, my podcast is my business card. Like people listen to the podcast, then they call me and they hire me. They use me as a consultant. And one consulting gig is worth tens of thousands of dollars. Like, why am I? It's not about the podcast. It's not about the downloads. It's my business card. It helps bring stuff in. I was like, that's a totally different way of thinking about your podcast that is outside the norm of what a lot of the industry tells you is the only way to extract value is through. monetization and downloads. And I appreciate you mentioning ads. I want to kind of transfer that because so many people on both sides of the micro is like, what kind of ads you're running? Like what's going on here? What's your CPM? Right. All those things. And I appreciate the Buzzsprout ads exist and it does definitely serve a purpose, but I want you to talk a little bit more about like knowing what that purpose is before you're just flipping a switch and turning it on. Yeah, exactly. I think there are people that they want to make money off their podcast. They want to straight up just make money off of downloads or maybe they want to make money, but they don't. They want to buy a new microphone. They want to cover their hosting fees. Bus Brought Ads was designed very easy. You go, you enable it. And now once you get a certain number of downloads, right? Because if you don't, if you don't have a thousand downloads in a month, you probably don't want to start putting ads into your podcast. You're not going to make that much money. And... You don't want to put that in front of your audience. So anyways, once you get a certain threshold, you can just enable it. It's the least amount of effort required. Therefore, it is the least form of monetization, right? Like you're going to make the least amount of money, but it's also the least amount of effort that you have to put forth. And so Buzzsprout ads, we built it for that purpose really just because people really wanted it. And we wanted to give them a way to be able to, you know, pay for that microphone or cover their hosting fees or, you know, do things like that. I love that man. It's a good heart behind it. A friend of mine says something very similar you just said. It's that it requires the least amount of work so it gets the least amount of result, right? Yes. I have a friend who says, do the work to get the result, just please do the right work. That's what he always says. And so when you talk about the work that's involved, can you explain more on how you can extract value by putting a little bit more work? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think one of the best ways to extract value out of your podcast is to find products that are in line with your listenership. So you and I were talking about a Dungeons and Dragons podcast, right? Like I've been known to throw the 20-sided die, you know, like, okay. But you've got a Dungeons and Dragons podcast and you go and you find, you know, a cool dice manufacturer, right? Like it's such a tight niche. So now even if you only have a hundred listeners to your podcast, those are a hundred listeners that would probably love to hear about that. you know, package of dice that's really cool or different. And then you, as the podcaster, you can have an affiliate link. Hey, you tell the affiliate, I only want to get paid when you get paid. If you get a sale, I want a percentage of the sale. What a great way to do monetization, right? Because now you're totally in with the product. You only get paid if they get paid. They're excited about that. You're excited about that. As long as they have a way of tracking it, it's a great way to do it. So affiliate marketing, I think that's what we would call affiliate, is when you find a product that's in line with... whatever your podcast is about. You don't want to do, you know, a Casper mattress on a Dungeons and Dragons podcast. You can, but you're not gonna, like, it's not gonna resonate with your audience. You're way better to do the work, find a product that you like. Like, you don't want to trade on that trust that they've built with you, right? Those listeners trust you. And so when you tell them, look, I've used this product, I like this product, It's got to be true. You can't just, you know, trade on that. So, yeah, I think that's a great example of doing the work. Finding an affiliate is one way to do it. Sponsorship is another one. Find somebody who maybe they don't have a product to sell, but they want to get their name out. They want to get their brand out. Well, now you could have them sponsor your podcast. And I recommend that when you do a sponsorship, you do it for a period of time. Don't do it per episode because your episodes, one of the great things about podcasting is that that episode will live on. Right? And you have no idea where you might end up. And so the last thing that you want to do is have an episode that you recorded with a sponsorship that now you're blowing up and it's hurting your ability to, you know, go different directions with your podcast because you've got this old episode that you promised you would leave the sponsorship in there forever. So I recommend sell a sponsorship. A lot of work to be able to find a sponsor, but sell it for a period of time. And that buzz sprout, we have something called dynamic content. A lot of the hosts have some form of dynamic content where you can upload with your audio, you can upload, hey, here's a whatever 30 second clip for a sponsorship. And you can say this month we're sponsored by, you know, Dungeons and Dragons dice. And, you know, go check it out here. So something like that, sponsorships, affiliates, I think those require more work, but you get a lot more value than just getting paid CPM. Yeah. Dynamic insertion is great, by the way. Anyone who's listened to podcasting made simple this show for a period of time knows that a week before the event comes, before you podcast made simple live, I'm going to have an announcement and that only takes me two seconds. I literally hit dynamic insertion at the beginning of every episode on all of my entire back catalog, every episode I have done. Right. And so it's a beautiful thing. Thanks for that. I'm surprised how many people when we're at conferences, we'll ask people about certain features and I'm surprised at how many people don't understand dynamic content. They. They think, oh, it's only for ads. Well, I don't have any ads or I'm not doing ads. I'm like, you could use dynamic content for anything. You could announce your newsletter. You could announce an event that's coming up. Right. Or it could be an affiliate or a sponsorship, but it doesn't have to be so many different ways to use it. Yeah. Thanks again for that, man. Jumping back to some couple of things you said. One thing I want to highlight real quick is that your podcast lives on forever. I recently started getting hit up about a podcast I was on over two years ago. And people were like, dude, that was so good. And I had to go back. I'm like, well, which one was it? That show. just became binge worthy, I guess. Like people started going back to the whole back catalog. And so I had tons of people reaching out. And so for a guest who's like, oh, this podcast doesn't look like it has enough listenership yet, so I don't want to be on it. Maybe you should. Right. Because at some point, people are going to go back and find that. And you never know when that podcast starts to take off. So if it has a formula and recipe for serving your same audience that you show up for, get on that show now. and get in the back catalog, right? You never know what's gonna blow up. I just discovered a podcast the other day. It was a leadership podcast that intrigued me. And I went back and I started episode one from 2017. So this content that was created in 2017 is still serving. It's still adding value. It's still, you know, getting downloads and it's got different guests. Every episode they have different guests. And so those guests are continuing to get downloads. This makes me think about the listener now or sorry, the guest seat, right? You're talking about like affiliates, finding a partner and stuff like that. You can also do this at the episode level. So if you're a podcast guest and you have a product or service, you're looking out there, gift it to the host or do something that they can see inside of it. And that episode can forever be an affiliates or some sort of partner with what it is that you're offering people. And you can kind of let that live on. I did that with one guy on my podcast. It was probably my first 50 episodes. And still to this day, people reach out to him because of it. And he reaches out to me saying, hey, man, I think I owe you a lot of money because this person came to that podcast that we did four years ago, right? Like, or whatever, whenever it was. And it's like, man, that's kind of cool. Like you have the opportunity back and forth to be able to serve together as well creatively. If you're like, hey, I don't necessarily want to align with just one sponsor. You can have one per episode if it's your guest. Again, as long as it really has your audience in mind. Going back to Dungeons and Dragons, you can keep selling the mattress. I think it'd be a hard sell to be like, You want to show up good for your guild, get a good night of sleep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a hard sell. Like it's got to really truly align to serve the person that's listening. Yeah. Yeah. When you think about that, that trust factor, I think it's really important for podcasters and it carries so much weight when you, when you tell your listeners, look, I care about you as my listener. And that's why I've found this product. Cause I think you're going to love it. And that's why I'm going to share it as opposed to, Hey, Gotta pay the bills somehow, so maybe you should buy a mattress, right? I think there's a related way of extracting value, which again, I'm surprised more podcasters don't do it, but it's just listener support. It's just saying, look, I bought a microphone, I'm recording these episodes, I hope you get value, I hope you get something out of the episodes that I'm creating. And if you do, consider supporting the show. Consider, with Buzzsprout, we have Buzzsprout subscriptions, other people use Patreon, there's all different ways to... to do it, but to say, look, consider supporting the show. I think we as podcasters need to educate listeners that it doesn't just happen by accident, right? Whatever, 10, 20 % of the effort that you do on your podcast happens behind the microphone. Everything else, the other 80%, listeners don't know anything about. And so educating them to say, hey, look, I hope you're getting value out of this. I'm putting a lot of my own time and money and blood, sweat, and tears. Consider supporting the show. It's not... It's not begging. It's not a guilt trip. It's just saying if you get value, consider sharing some of that value with us. And there's something that you said to me again, while we were probably riding skateboards. I feel like that's where we have a lot of good conversations. And this is something that I heard a lot of podcasters say, but I didn't really know how to respond to it. And it's this when a podcaster says, well, I don't really have anything premium to offer. Oh, yeah, that drives me crazy. Share your perspective. Like was very enlightening to me. I've used a lot. It's very encouraging people. Can you just share like? Sure. So so what happened was we launched Buzzsprout subscriptions and then we went to thing was Podfest and so we had just launched it and I was asking people as they came up I said hey what do you think about Buzzsprout subscriptions and and so many people were like well I don't have any I don't have any premium content I one everybody can ask for listener support and two everything you do is premium right like you're not you're creating something of value and so By saying that, you're diminishing the value of what it is that you're creating, right? Like you're not just throwing it out to see if it sticks. You're actually building something of value. And so having that mentality will come across in the way that you communicate to your listeners, right? When you talk about, man, I hope you're getting a lot of value out of this. I'm enjoying it. I'm enjoying putting it together for you. I hope you're getting value out of it. As opposed to, ah, this isn't really that valuable, but this other stuff over here, yeah, if you pay a little extra, I'll give you the real valuable stuff. And so I'm not a fan of the premium. content just because of that. I think there's a way for it to work, but you really got to evaluate if that's a good direction for you to go with your podcast. I'm a much bigger fan of, hey, I don't want to do that. I don't want to take this. This content, I hope you're finding it valuable. I don't want to put it behind a paywall. Consider supporting the show so that I don't have to. I hope I don't have to put in a mattress ad. Consider supporting the show. But you know, I'm paying money. I'm buying microphones. I'm doing things, you know? So... And I've talked to other podcasters who were specific about the money that they, like, I really want to buy this specific microphone. They put it out to their listeners and they had a listener buy them the microphone and ship it to them. Like stuff like that, like educate listeners on, it doesn't just happen by accident, you know? Yeah. I think a little bit of imposter syndrome goes in there. Yeah. But people care. People really do care. I knew you were going to say that, that somebody bought a microphone. Like I was like, I know what happened here. Like I can already tell you the end of that story. Cause that's, that's what people that are getting value from you, cause it's premium content. Want to give back. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes back. And there's also that intimate. It's a strange intimate relationship that occurs between the host, the guest and the listeners. Like there's something different about that kind of connection. And we see over and over again, anytime they do surveys and they talk to podcast listeners, podcast listeners want to connect more with the people that are on the podcast that they listen to. And it's because there's this connection that happens with them. And that's great. Tom, we're near the end of our time here, man. So I think we covered a lot of the things. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Any final thoughts for podcast guests and hosts that are listening, attending today, whatever it might be? I think as you get into podcasting, just having having some goals of like, what what is it that makes you want to start a podcast or what is it that makes you want to be a guest on a podcast? Like articulate what is the destination that I want to end up? Why am I doing this? The more that you can clearly articulate that, the better the chances are that you're gonna find a path to get to that destination, as opposed to just throwing it out there to see what sticks. Have a destination in mind, and then be intentional about the path that you choose to get there. And don't let other people dictate what that destination is. Answer it for yourself, for your own, for your business, or for where you wanna be personally. Where is it that you wanna go and then follow the right path to get there? Thank you so much for the time, David. No problem. Thanks for having me. For more episodes, please visit podmatch.com forward slash episodes. Thank you so much for listening.